chapter 653 discussion and 654 predictions

GreatKungLao wrote:Besides, even if everyone was living in Infinite Tsukuyomi, their bodies in reality would getting old or would be needed to eat and drink, so eventually they would die and this illusion would end in an instance. And while everyone would be living in Infinite Tsukuyomi, that means that people wouldn't make any kids in reality, which means no new generations, which means that when their bodies would die in reality (all of them), there will be no one left to control with Infinite Tsukuyomi. In fact, IT can become a genocide.

Easy fix, give zetsu bodies to everyone. No need to eat or drink or poop.
It's called infinite tsukuyomi so, no, it's not going to end in an instant... or ever. And calling it a genocide because people could die is kinda ironic... I mean, is life genocide becuase people will eventually die?
How would they reproduce inside IT is an interesting question... Kishi hasn't explored the mechanics of IT that deeply, but I suppose it'd still be possible, but, as you said, not in reality.

Irielo wrote:To bring peace in the Shinobi World will be indeed a big challenge for Naruto. It might take him a whole lifetime and like you wrote, conflicts might arise again after some generations. It's in fact a cycle with periods of peace and period of wars. That's why, to me, Naruto is the one who has the mission to bring peace in this era. Even though this peace might not last forever, he will be seen as a role model by the next generations. He will probably have the same status like the So6P and his principles of life, his Nindo, is something he will entrust to the next generations in the whole Shinobi World, so on an international level as like the Will of Fire was entrusted to his generation but on a local basis in this case: Konoha.

Hmmm... considering that right after the Sage died... everything in the ninja world went downhill because of his sons, despite their father's legacy of trying to find peace, I don't think that Naruto doing the same will lead to anything better.

Batokusanagi wrote:.

Irielo wrote:To bring peace in the Shinobi World will be indeed a big challenge for Naruto. It might take him a whole lifetime and like you wrote, conflicts might arise again after some generations. It's in fact a cycle with periods of peace and period of wars. That's why, to me, Naruto is the one who has the mission to bring peace in this era. Even though this peace might not last forever, he will be seen as a role model by the next generations. He will probably have the same status like the So6P and his principles of life, his Nindo, is something he will entrust to the next generations in the whole Shinobi World, so on an international level as like the Will of Fire was entrusted to his generation but on a local basis in this case: Konoha.

Hmmm... considering that right after the Sage died... everything in the ninja world went downhill because of his sons, despite their father's legacy of trying to find peace, I don't think that Naruto doing the same will lead to anything better.

Sorry, maybe I did not express myself clearly. I did not mean that Naruto will do automatically the same like the Sage did but that he will have this kind of "aura" in the Shinobis' history like the Sage. He will become a reference. Maybe after some generations, Naruto himself will be considered as a kind of myth or legend who left his legacy to the future generations, for instance his nindo and his values about peace. The Sage separated the Tailed Beasts, that was one of his legacy, what could Naruto leave for the next generations? The answer still has to come.

Irielo wrote:Sorry, maybe I did not express myself clearly. I did not mean that Naruto will do automatically the same like the Sage did but that he will have this kind of "aura" in the Shinobis' history like the Sage. He will become a reference. Maybe after some generations, Naruto himself will be considered as a kind of myth or legend who left his legacy to the future generations, for instance his nindo and his values about peace. The Sage separated the Tailed Beasts, that was one of his legacy, what could Naruto leave for the next generations? The answer still has to come.

What you're describing (the bolded) is exactly what the Sage did which just agrees with my point. Right now it seems that what Naruto wants to do is also exactly what the Sage did (defeating the shinju, splitting the beasts, achieving peace).

I think Madara might merge his mind into Obito's to interrupt this.

Batokusanagi wrote:

Irielo wrote:Sorry, maybe I did not express myself clearly. I did not mean that Naruto will do automatically the same like the Sage did but that he will have this kind of "aura" in the Shinobis' history like the Sage. He will become a reference. Maybe after some generations, Naruto himself will be considered as a kind of myth or legend who left his legacy to the future generations, for instance his nindo and his values about peace. The Sage separated the Tailed Beasts, that was one of his legacy, what could Naruto leave for the next generations? The answer still has to come.

What you're describing (the bolded) is exactly what the Sage did which just agrees with my point. Right now it seems that what Naruto wants to do is also exactly what the Sage did (defeating the shinju, splitting the beasts, achieving peace).

I still want to believe that Naruto will bring something which the Sage did not bring. He might be following the same path like the Sage but when the latter told the Tailed Beasts that someone will come to show them what true power is or something along these lines, don't you think that Naruto will bring something on the top of it instead of repeating exactly what the Sage did? That would imo somehow confirm that the new generation surpasses the former ones.

Irielo wrote:

Batokusanagi wrote:

Irielo wrote:Sorry, maybe I did not express myself clearly. I did not mean that Naruto will do automatically the same like the Sage did but that he will have this kind of "aura" in the Shinobis' history like the Sage. He will become a reference. Maybe after some generations, Naruto himself will be considered as a kind of myth or legend who left his legacy to the future generations, for instance his nindo and his values about peace. The Sage separated the Tailed Beasts, that was one of his legacy, what could Naruto leave for the next generations? The answer still has to come.

What you're describing (the bolded) is exactly what the Sage did which just agrees with my point. Right now it seems that what Naruto wants to do is also exactly what the Sage did (defeating the shinju, splitting the beasts, achieving peace).

I still want to believe that Naruto will bring something which the Sage did not bring. He might be following the same path like the Sage but when the latter told the Tailed Beasts that someone will come to show them what true power is or something along these lines, don't you think that Naruto will bring something on the top of it instead of repeating exactly what the Sage did? That would imo somehow confirm that the new generation surpasses the former ones.

very interesting theory irielo
but what could that be? what can naruto bring along with piece that the sage could not do?

lily567 wrote:

Spoiler:

very interesting theory irielo
but what could that be?  what can naruto bring along with piece that the sage could not do?

Unfortunately, I can't answer you about that. He has already his nindo that he shares with Hinata. What could he do now? I don't know. Maybe to give a mission to the Tailed Beasts. They were still young when the Sage left them. Now they have grown up, so they have more experience and most of them respect Naruto. He could maybe teach the Shinobi World how to respect the Bijuus: that should not be considered as tools to gain power because that could lead at the end of a day to a total destruction.

That's why Hashirama's flashback about the first Kage Summit is important because it showed how the Five Great Nations used the Bijuus to build a so called balance between them but it did not work out. So maybe Naruto will come with a new approach more based on love and bonds than power to correct what happened before.

^that maybe the case

I have a scenario

naruto : you asked me if therereally is a need to stay in this reality
my answer is yes, there is a need because I have my friends(picture shows naruto with all hisfriends but for some reason it is different from all the rest of pictures that we have seen, I hope you guys catch on this part), not only that I have someone waiting for me( picture shows naruto thinking of hinata). besides that I also made a promise( flashback showing naruto speaking with the tailbeast). what do you think I could gain from living in a fake world,i wouldn't gain anything and neither will you, so come on obito we are all waiting for you and I know rin will be proud to know that you made the right decision.

I know it is short but bear with me

lily567 wrote:^that maybe the case

I have a scenario

naruto : you asked me if therereally is a need to stay in this reality
my answer is yes, there is a need because   I have my friends(picture shows naruto with all hisfriends but for some reason it is different from all the rest of pictures that we have seen, I hope you guys catch on this part), not only that I have someone waiting for me( picture shows naruto thinking of hinata).  besides that I also made a promise( flashback showing naruto speaking with the tailbeast). what do you think I could gain from living in a fake world,i wouldn't gain anything and neither will you, so come on obito we are all waiting for you and I know rin will be proud to know that you made the right decision.

I know it is short but bear with me

That might be short but it's very fine imo.

Spoiler:

^thank you

Batokusanagi wrote:There's no reason Infinite tsukuyomi has to be "forced" (wouldn't people prefer a better world?) and remove people's freewill (Madara already took Obito to a very reduced version of infinite tsukuyomi and Obito didn't lose his frewill or anything of the sort), aside from Obito being evil, of course. But that's what the tnj is for. Infinite Tsukuyomi can have anything you could possibly imagine with no downsides, so all your contentions against fall on their faces.

Even if Naruto becomes the best hokage ever ("leading by example" or whatever), there's no chance he could achieve even 1/10000000... of what could be possible in a well-thought out infinite tsukuyomi.
The ninja alliance is certainly a step in the right direction to achieving a better world, but unless Kishi decides to finish the manga with the classic phrase "and everyone lived happily ever after" (would be kinda cheap, though), the peace Naruto could achieve will only last as long as he (and his generation, maybe) lives, perhaps some generations after, and then everything will go back to how it used to be and there'll be war again as the alliance's bond weakens.

Sorry to come back to this, I've been away for a bit. The reason I spoke about people losing their free will is because I was under the impression IT was a massive all powerful genjutsu using the moon so it can get everyone, please correct me if I'm wrong. If it is a genjutsu, isn't genjutsu control the flow of the victim's chakra to manipulate their senses? So if this is the case, how can my will be free if everything I perceive is fake and controlled (an illusion)? If I understand correctly according to what you say (the bolded) is it a case where IT alters reality itself so that everyone can have what they want? but if that is the case what happens if for e.g. Karin wants Sasuke but Sasuke doesn't want Karin, is a duplicate Sasuke created to compensate for this? and even if it is won't that just go back to being an illusion? since it isn't the real Sasuke? (it's an extreme example but same general concept) I could be very wrong but I'm saying all of this because to me this isn't peace or well true peace at least. The humans would stop fighting but not because they wanted to but because they were being controlled that way. If you get what I'm saying? I know I'm not too good with words and explaining myself sometimes  

Could you describe for me a well thought out IT is?  I too would think that ending is cheap and the peace only lasting for a couple generations is quite believable and understandable to me. I don't want to get all philosophical but there cannot be yin without yang. I could again be wrong but the shinobi world has always been one of conflict and turmoil, maybe what Jiraiya wanted was the shinobi world to experience an era of peace, something it has never seen? and this big change is what Naruto and his generation will bring about?

Lickstermik wrote:

Batokusanagi wrote:There's no reason Infinite tsukuyomi has to be "forced" (wouldn't people prefer a better world?) and remove people's freewill (Madara already took Obito to a very reduced version of infinite tsukuyomi and Obito didn't lose his frewill or anything of the sort), aside from Obito being evil, of course. But that's what the tnj is for. Infinite Tsukuyomi can have anything you could possibly imagine with no downsides, so all your contentions against fall on their faces.

Even if Naruto becomes the best hokage ever ("leading by example" or whatever), there's no chance he could achieve even 1/10000000... of what could be possible in a well-thought out infinite tsukuyomi.
The ninja alliance is certainly a step in the right direction to achieving a better world, but unless Kishi decides to finish the manga with the classic phrase "and everyone lived happily ever after" (would be kinda cheap, though), the peace Naruto could achieve will only last as long as he (and his generation, maybe) lives, perhaps some generations after, and then everything will go back to how it used to be and there'll be war again as the alliance's bond weakens.

Sorry to come back to this, I've been away for a bit. The reason I spoke about people losing their free will is because I was under the impression IT was a massive all powerful genjutsu using the moon so it can get everyone, please correct me if I'm wrong. If it is a genjutsu, isn't genjutsu control the flow of the victim's chakra to manipulate their senses? So if this is the case, how can my will be free if everything I perceive is fake and controlled (an illusion)? If I understand correctly according to what you say (the bolded) is it a case where IT alters reality itself so that everyone can have what they want? but if that is the case what happens if for e.g. Karin wants Sasuke but Sasuke doesn't want Karin, is a duplicate Sasuke created to compensate for this?  and even if it is won't that just go back to being an illusion? since it isn't the real Sasuke? (it's an extreme example but same general concept) I could be very wrong but I'm saying all of this because to me this isn't peace or well true peace at least. The humans would stop fighting but not because they wanted to but because they were being controlled that way. If you get what I'm saying? I know I'm not too good with words and explaining myself sometimes  

Could you describe for me a well thought out IT is?  I too would think that ending is cheap and the peace only lasting for a couple generations is quite believable and understandable to me. I don't want to get all philosophical but there cannot be yin without yang. I could again be wrong but the shinobi world has always been one of conflict and turmoil, maybe what Jiraiya wanted was the shinobi world to experience an era of peace, something it has never seen? and this big change is what Naruto and his generation will bring about?

don't worry about it majority of us(well me) find it kinda difficult to express myself using words

jiraiya had wanted peace where everyone can understand each other. I think jiraiya wanted to say that instead of causing a war there must be something that shinobi can do to solve things in a peaceful manner
is it possible that the genjutsu is similar to the one used in road to ninja if you get what I mean

Lickstermik wrote:Sorry to come back to this, I've been away for a bit. The reason I spoke about people losing their free will is because I was under the impression IT was a massive all powerful genjutsu using the moon so it can get everyone, please correct me if I'm wrong. If it is a genjutsu, isn't genjutsu control the flow of the victim's chakra to manipulate their senses? So if this is the case, how can my will be free if everything I perceive is fake and controlled (an illusion)? If I understand correctly according to what you say (the bolded) is it a case where IT alters reality itself so that everyone can have what they want? but if that is the case what happens if for e.g. Karin wants Sasuke but Sasuke doesn't want Karin, is a duplicate Sasuke created to compensate for this?  and even if it is won't that just go back to being an illusion? since it isn't the real Sasuke? (it's an extreme example but same general concept) I could be very wrong but I'm saying all of this because to me this isn't peace or well true peace at least. The humans would stop fighting but not because they wanted to but because they were being controlled that way. If you get what I'm saying? I know I'm not too good with words and explaining myself sometimes  

Yeah, that's kinda how genjutsu works, but when Madara showed Obito a small-scale version of IT, Obito didn't lose his freewill, he was quite aware that he was in a genjutsu; so it's possible that this could be the case for full-scale IT. I did say before that a perfect world (or as you said "everyone can have what they want") is not possible, but I do think the closest you could get to it is with IT.

Could you describe for me a well thought out IT is?  I too would think that ending is cheap and the peace only lasting for a couple generations is quite believable and understandable to me. I don't want to get all philosophical but there cannot be yin without yang. I could again be wrong but the shinobi world has always been one of conflict and turmoil, maybe what Jiraiya wanted was the shinobi world to experience an era of peace, something it has never seen? and this big change is what Naruto and his generation will bring about?

I kinda already did, but you could start with infinite resources, that'd start to eliminate the environment that makes necessary to train kids to be assassins and the deathmatch call "the Chuunin Exams". That'd be a good starting point.[/quote]

How do you think, is it possible, that Madara's trump card is taking over Obito's body? You know, like Orochimaru wanted to do with Sasuke?

http://readms.com/r/naruto/653/2121/10:

hey you guys, did obito try to cast a genjutsu on naruto
look here
It looks like the sharigan was about to form in naruto's eye but obito changed his mind. if this is the case, why did obito stop?

if the link doesn't work(I hate it when this happens) try looking on page 10 in chap 653

Hm, I am really wanting to see 654 already ;_; and link broke xD sorry.

RedEyes wrote:Hm, I am really wanting to see 654 already ;_; and link broke xD sorry.

you might have to look for it manually

Ok so heres what it is: No. You need to have at least activated the mangekyo sharingan before using genjutsu. The same sharingan that Kakashi uses.
Also, it's portrayed in Obito's mind, and Naruto being very headstrong and stubborn probably wouldn't let shit like that effect him to begin with :3
Answer? Nope. Not at the moment. Just sexy TNJ all day.

RedEyes wrote:Ok so heres what it is: No. You need to have at least activated the mangekyo sharingan before using genjutsu. The same sharingan that Kakashi uses.
Also, it's portrayed in Obito's mind, and Naruto being very headstrong and stubborn probably wouldn't let shit like that effect him to begin with :3
Answer? Nope. Not at the moment. Just sexy TNJ all day.

hmm ok
I have a feeling that madara will step in the next chapter as well as obito not accepting naruto's hand

Fuck, I read the spoilers! ;_; I know what's going to happen >_<

RedEyes wrote:Fuck, I read the spoilers! ;_; I know what's going to happen >_<

sometimes the spoilers aren't exactly accurate but for this one I will accept it because I know obito won't accept naruto's hand