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naruto chapter 657 discussion

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Post by GreatKungLao on Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:56 am

Sasuke's bloodlust is rather... disappointing. Because of such kind of behaviour humans can't be in peace. I hope his brains will be fixed properly by Naruto once again.
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Post by Irielo on Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:54 am

GreatKungLao wrote:Sasuke's bloodlust is rather... disappointing. Because of such kind of behaviour humans can't be in peace. I hope his brains will be fixed properly by Naruto once again.
"Sasuke's bloodlust" you write? That's only a question of point of view. I do like Naruto as a character but I respect Sasuke's determination as well. So now, Madara is the new "victim of circumstances" who is allowed to shed blood the way he wants but if someone like Sasuke tries to stop him even if that means of getting rid of a big threat, then he is a brainless and "disappointing" dude... Wow!
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Post by Mustang on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:20 am

I don't see Sasuke as brainless or has a lust for blood, remember he is fighting the man who caused all of this, he caused the Uchiha massacre, he used Obito for his sick plan, Sasuke most likely wants to set things right, in the end he will be the only living Uchiha. he will most likely want to prove that he alone can revive a fallen clan, bring honour to the Uchiha and protect the village as Naruto's right hand man.

So Sasuke going after Madara, well as Sawyer7Mage said, at least Sasuke is doing something about Madara, not standing there like Naruto and Sai. so overall Sasuke attacking Madara isn't much of a problem.

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Post by lily567 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:36 am

I also think that sasuke already kinda figured out that the weakness of madara could be the face on his chest hence he tried to attack it imo

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Post by Mustang on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:53 am

He also most likely knew that there wasn't a lot of time, so to attack Madara at his weakest is a smart move anyway, not that wanting to face Madara at his strongest is the best thing going since he is still a very strong opponent now. better to die fighting, than to stand in wonder.

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Post by Irielo on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:57 am

51-mustang wrote:He also most likely knew that there wasn't a lot of time, so to attack Madara at his weakest is a smart move anyway. better to die fighting, than to stand in wonder.
What a superb post full of common sense!
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Post by Mustang on Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:02 am

Irielo wrote:
51-mustang wrote:He also most likely knew that there wasn't a lot of time, so to attack Madara at his weakest is a smart move anyway. better to die fighting, than to stand in wonder.
What a superb post full of common sense!
My secret is I have read the Art of War by Sun Tzu, so I know about the basics of strategy.

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Post by Irielo on Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:05 am

51-mustang wrote:
Irielo wrote:
51-mustang wrote:He also most likely knew that there wasn't a lot of time, so to attack Madara at his weakest is a smart move anyway. better to die fighting, than to stand in wonder.
What a superb post full of common sense!
My secret is I have read the Art of War by Sun Tzu, so I know about the basics of strategy.
Good on you my friend! The Art of War by Sun Tzu is a kind of Bible when it comes to strategy's issues.
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Post by lily567 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:41 am

can one of you guys post me the link to the art of war by sun Tzu plz

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Post by Irielo on Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:57 am

lily567 wrote:can one of you guys post me the link to the art of war by sun Tzu plz
Sorry, I don't have the link but I read the book. You could eventually order it by internet. Btw, now it would be better (imo) to remain on topic. What I have to say regarding the K11 is that they deserve to show all their capacity in this fight. However, in order to be able to face Madara, they should surpass the current Kages. The only one who might be equal to Tsunade for instance or even to surpass her now, is Sakura.

For the rest, they might have a role when the big job would have been done like it was the case with Obito. Sasuke and Naruto's combo attack worked out and Naruto entered Obito's mind and that gave them the opportunity to extract the Bijuus from him. Something similar might happen although I would like to see them participating more to the battle.
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Post by lily567 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:23 pm

Irielo wrote:
lily567 wrote:can one of you guys post me the link to the art of war by sun Tzu plz
Sorry, I don't have the link but I read the book. You could eventually order it by internet. Btw, now it would be better (imo) to remain on topic. What I have to say regarding the K11 is that they deserve to show all their capacity in this fight. However, in order to be able to face Madara, they should surpass the current Kages. The only one who might be equal to Tsunade for instance or even to surpass her now, is Sakura.

For the rest, they might have a role when the big job would have been done like it was the case with Obito. Sasuke and Naruto's combo attack worked out and Naruto entered Obito's mind and that gave them the opportunity to extract the Bijuus from him. Something similar might happen although I would like to see them participating more to the battle.
yes sakura might be equal to or even surpass tsunade but I don't think she will be the only one to surpass someone. how would the same scenario with obito come into play with madara, I mean madara isn't a jinchuriki or in other words canthat naruto can fight madara from the inside or should it be left up till sasuke this time?

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Post by Yamasaki Akaiko on Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:42 pm

51-mustang wrote:So Sasuke going after Madara, well as Sawyer7Mage said, at least Sasuke is doing something about Madara, not standing there like Naruto and Sai. so overall Sasuke attacking Madara isn't much of a problem.
I don't know if you're quoting one of Sawyer's "exaggerations" or not, but Naruto & Sai weren't just standing there. Naruto threw a very big attack the last chapter to help knock down Madara and Sai was attempting to seal Madara (just was too late to finish it before Madara was able to use Obito). Then, Madara attacked both of them before Sasuke got into the picture. I don't expect anyone to just shrug off an attack by Madara. The fact that they're still standing is a testament to their individual strength (as a bunch of others are about to get wiped out most likely).
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Post by GreatKungLao on Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:04 pm

Irielo wrote:
GreatKungLao wrote:Sasuke's bloodlust is rather... disappointing. Because of such kind of behaviour humans can't be in peace. I hope his brains will be fixed properly by Naruto once again.
"Sasuke's bloodlust" you write? That's only a question of point of view. I do like Naruto as a character but I respect Sasuke's determination as well. So now, Madara is the new "victim of circumstances" who is allowed to shed blood the way he wants but if someone like Sasuke tries to stop him even if that means of getting rid of a big threat, then he is a brainless and "disappointing" dude... Wow!
Hashirama and Madara were once just like Naruto and Sasuke, Obito and Kakashi.
Spoiler:
naruto chapter 657 discussion  - Page 2 S012
And if Naruto was able to deal with Obito without killing him, I hope to see the same happen with Madara.

Just like the others, Madara was once a dreamer, he believed in true peace and creating Konoha with Hashirama was part of a plan of bringing this peace. But he was traped in circle of bad influence, which was caused by war. All his brothers were killed (by hands of a clan of his best friend), his own clan turned on him and then he found this monolith, where he read the history of humanity, that wars were always there and no matter, how hard other chosen ones tried to stop this circle of wars, it always started repeat itself again and again. Then he found out about this possibility of Eternal Tsukuyomi and so it started.

Obito and Pain are also wanted to force their idea of peace on others (but I have to say, that they were inspired by Madara's philosophy), so does wants Madara, because he doesn't believe, that wars could be stoped once and for all, for him history has proved that this is "impossible".

I would like to see Madara been influenced and inspired just like Nagato and Obito were. With this Naruto could also seal deal of another friendship of two once best friends (like he did with Obito and Kakashi and how he is doing with him and Sasuke).

I'm more on a side of Naruto and his way of dealing with things, which is using Thou shalt not kill. Because this is exactly how future Hokage, who is going to bring peace to the whole world should act. If somebody like Sasuke would be acknowledged with his way of dealing with things, which seems to have "kill and kill" (he also tried to kill weakened Obito, while Naruto didn't wanted this to happen and tried to stop him and then Kakashi), then people would be thinking, that killing is ok, which would eventually lead to another circle... And so on. Naruto on the other hand is an inspiration in that things can be solved without blood been split and peace can be achieved, if people will stop doing this dishonored kind of things.

Honestly, I was disappointed, when Alliance was cheering for Sasuke him running to kill weakend Obito, while the one, who stoped and helped Obito didn't wanted this to happen at all, but Alliance didn't listened to him, the one who was leading them to victory this whole time.

Maybe Sasuke been acting all straight way looks cool in this new chapter and such, I'm not approving this kind of actions, with all those words like "I will kill you/you can rot in hell" and such.

But I have to admint, that I actually like Madara's badassery in this new chapter. Without having actual eyes, he is still kicking asses and trash talks everyone around like if they have absolutely no chances of winning. This kind of a villain could finally lead Naruto to another power up, which I hope will happen soon.

In 658 I'm expecting God of War and Shingeki no Kyojin with Madara and bijuus.
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Post by Irielo on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:27 pm

lily567 wrote:yes sakura  might be equal to or even surpass tsunade but I don't think she will be the only one to surpass someone. how would the same scenario with obito come into play with madara, I mean madara isn't a jinchuriki or in other words canthat naruto can fight madara from the inside or should  it be left up till sasuke this time?
I did not mean that Madara is a Jinchuuriki...I just meant that Naruto and Sasuke might play the bigger part in putting Madara down like it was the case with Obito. The rest might just help them.  

GreatKungLao wrote:Hashirama and Madara were once just like Naruto and Sasuke, Obito and Kakashi.

And if Naruto was able to deal with Obito without killing him, I hope to see the same happen with Madara.

Just like the others, Madara was once a dreamer, he believed in true peace and creating Konoha with Hashirama was part of a plan of bringing this peace. But he was traped in circle of bad influence, which was caused by war. All his brothers were killed (by hands of a clan of his best friend), his own clan turned on him and then he found this monolith, where he read the history of humanity, that wars were always there and no matter, how hard other chosen ones tried to stop this circle of wars, it always started repeat itself again and again. Then he found out about this possibility of Eternal Tsukuyomi and so it started.
Madara was once in his mother's belly before he came to the world, isn't it? But I guess he changed from a baby state to child etc. Changes form part of life too: one can change for the best, one can change for the worst. I respect Madara for the fact that he evolved according to his own way of thinking and judging things. I respect Madara because he does not play the victim but assumes who he is.
GreatKungLao wrote:Obito and Pain are also wanted to force their idea of peace on others (but I have to say, that they were inspired by Madara's philosophy), so does wants Madara, because he doesn't believe, that wars could be stoped once and for all, for him history has proved that this is "impossible".
I would like to see Madara been influenced and inspired just like Nagato and Obito were. With this Naruto could also seal deal of another friendship of two once best friends (like he did with Obito and Kakashi and how he is doing with him and Sasuke).
To me, Obito had not really an ideal of peace like Nagato or even Madara. Obito wanted to use this idea of peace in order to escape reality and to create his own selfish fake reality.


GreatKungLao wrote:Honestly, I was disappointed, when Alliance was cheering for Sasuke him running to kill weakend Obito, while the one, who stoped and helped Obito didn't wanted this to happen at all, but Alliance didn't listened to him, the one who was leading them to victory this whole time.
That's naive to think that everybody is Naruto. The latter is very special in his way of doing things. Keep I'm mind, that the Naruto universe takes place in the Shinobi World and that people since their childhood are trained to be confronted to life and death situations whereby killing or get killed is the only outcome most of the times...

The whole alliance just wanted to get rid of a threat and Sasuke as well. Naruto is the one who TnJ Obito but not the rest. So what could one expect from them?
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Post by lily567 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:40 pm

[quote="Irielo"]
lily567 wrote:yes sakura  might be equal to or even surpass tsunade but I don't think she will be the only one to surpass someone. how would the same scenario with obito come into play with madara, I mean madara isn't a jinchuriki or in other words can naruto fight madara from the inside or should  it be left up till sasuke this time?
I did not mean that Madara is a Jinchuuriki...I just meant that Naruto and Sasuke might play the bigger part in putting Madara down like it was the case with Obito. The rest might just help them.  

ok I understand but even if naruto and sasuke play a big role in defeating madara,i think sasuke would play the biggest role since it has been foreshadowed imo that sasuke can surpass madara so most likely we might see more scenes of sasuke vs madara.

the ones that are capable of surpassing others are naruto ,sasuke, sakura, hinata, ino, shikamaru
we all know who naruto has surpassed already as well as capable to surpass hashi , we know sasuke might have already surpassed itachi and is on the verge of surpassing madara, sakura surpassing tsunade or might remain just equal to her(you might never know), hinata is quite capable of surpassing neji as well as her father, ino and shika surpassing their fathers.

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Post by Irielo on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:57 pm

lily567 wrote:ok I understand but even if naruto and sasuke play a big role in defeating madara,i think sasuke would play the biggest role since it has been  foreshadowed imo that sasuke can surpass madara so most likely we might see more scenes of sasuke vs madara.

the ones that are capable of surpassing others are naruto ,sasuke, sakura, hinata, ino, shikamaru
we all know who naruto has surpassed already as well as capable to surpass hashi , we know sasuke might have already surpassed itachi and is on the verge of surpassing madara, sakura surpassing tsunade or might remain just equal to her(you might never know), hinata is quite capable of surpassing neji as well as her father, ino and shika surpassing their fathers.
Yes, Sasuke could play the biggest role in defeating Madara. Lee for instance could be add to your list: him surpassing Gai. As far as Kiba and Shino are concerned, I don't know. And TenTen, poor of her, is constantly forgotten.
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Post by GreatKungLao on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:04 pm

What if in order to hide bijuus from Madara, they will decide by their own free will to become one with jinchuurikis again, which they will choose on their own? You know, it will be much more harder for Madara to catch smaller targets, than when they are huge as titans.

But to be honest, I would like to see all bijuus been sealed on their own free will inside Naruto and not as Juubi, but as 8 separate bijuus (not 9, because Bee is still alive). Just imagine, all 8 bijuus inside Naruto, all their full amount of chakra, their memories, feelings, strength combined with Naruto's. Plus second half of Kurama. Because I doubt, that even with only both parts of Kurama Naruto will be able to do anything against Madara.

But if strength of all bijuus will be in one host, who have the strongest Will of Fire out there, this is something that will make Madara sweat.
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Post by lily567 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Irielo wrote:
lily567 wrote:ok I understand but even if naruto and sasuke play a big role in defeating madara,i think sasuke would play the biggest role since it has been  foreshadowed imo that sasuke can surpass madara so most likely we might see more scenes of sasuke vs madara.

the ones that are capable of surpassing others are naruto ,sasuke, sakura, hinata, ino, shikamaru
we all know who naruto has surpassed already as well as capable to surpass hashi , we know sasuke might have already surpassed itachi and is on the verge of surpassing madara, sakura surpassing tsunade or might remain just equal to her(you might never know), hinata is quite capable of surpassing neji as well as her father, ino and shika surpassing their fathers.
Yes, Sasuke could play the biggest role in defeating Madara. Lee for instance could be add to your list: him surpassing Gai. As far as Kiba and Shino are concerned, I don't know. And TenTen, poor of her, is constantly forgotten.
oh yh and lee too naruto chapter 657 discussion  - Page 2 2205897398  I didn't think of tenten maybe kishi might let her play a role that might surprise us all

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Post by Strawberry on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:18 am

Oh wow, Madara Uchiha... now THAT is a final villain. If only Obito would've died, I'd be one happy strawberry.

But Madara, damn... even blind and BEFORE absorbing the sage chakra from Hashirama, he was able to shrug off amaterasu like nothing, move easily and blitz Naruto. I like it very much, though I do have to wonder why is he showing those skills now and not when he was an edo. I still don't understand what possible handicap could an edo body have for his power, but I suppose that will be explained later on.

And I couldn't have possibly been the only one who thought Madara could've meant he was working with Orochimaru. I mean, when he showed Hashirama's face on his chest and Hashirama told him he was doing nefarious things, Madara corrected him saying that was the job of an acquaintance of an underling of his... Now, I know Kabuto made those modifications to Madara's body, but he did those before Obito knew he was planning on resurrecting Madara. So those modifications to Madara's body should've been done BEFORE he showed Madara's coffin to Obito. So he should've done those modifications to Madara's body under someone else's orders, not Obito's. And who else other than Orochimaru? Furthermore, they should've known about Madara's plan to become one with Hashirama (LOL), something they could've only known by meeting Madara himself. It sounds strange and far-fetched, but to me it seems possible. xD

And well, nothing much happened really. Madara HAS to do some damage now, and I think more deaths are on the way, or at least they should be. He is a serious threat and he has to bring back that sense of danger that was lost ever since Obito took over. It's a war after all.

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Post by Irielo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:38 am

Strawberry wrote:Oh wow, Madara Uchiha... now THAT is a final villain. If only Obito would've died, I'd be one happy strawberry.

But Madara, damn... even blind and BEFORE absorbing the sage chakra from Hashirama, he was able to shrug off amaterasu like nothing, move easily and blitz Naruto. I like it very much, though I do have to wonder why is he showing those skills now and not when he was an edo. I still don't understand what possible handicap could an edo body have for his power, but I suppose that will be explained later on.

And I couldn't have possibly been the only one who thought Madara could've meant he was working with Orochimaru. I mean, when he showed Hashirama's face on his chest and Hashirama told him he was doing nefarious things, Madara corrected him saying that was the job of an acquaintance of an underling of his... Now, I know Kabuto made those modifications to Madara's body, but he did those before Obito knew he was planning on resurrecting Madara. So those modifications to Madara's body should've been done BEFORE he showed Madara's coffin to Obito. So he should've done those modifications to Madara's body under someone else's orders, not Obito's. And who else other than Orochimaru? Furthermore, they should've known about Madara's plan to become one with Hashirama (LOL), something they could've only known by meeting Madara himself. It sounds strange and far-fetched, but to me it seems possible. xD

And well, nothing much happened really. Madara HAS to do some damage now, and I think more deaths are on the way, or at least they should be. He is a serious threat and he has to bring back that sense of danger that was lost ever since Obito took over. It's a war after all.
I think the answer why Madara wanted to be resurrected lies in his modified blood. Alive, he can show the power of the Senju+Uchiha's blood. Just look how just after he lightly bit his wrist how Hashi could not move anymore. Alive he can perform Sennjutsu and absorb chakra which was imo not possible as a zombi. Moreover, now thanks to blood, he would be able to summon..

Regarding the Orochimaru issue, I thing it's very possible that something like that happened. And actually, we have already discussed once about it in this thread:

https://naruhina.forumotion.com/t829-how-could-madara-implant-hashirama-s-cells-to-himself
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Post by Strawberry on Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:26 am

^ He was able to summon as an Edo Tensei. Remember when he tried to summon Kurama and the only reason why it didn't work was because he was still sealed inside of Naruto. Maybe the reason you're giving is the one, but it still needs to be stated in the manga. Something that made him give up even infinite amounts of chakra, can't be left for assumptions. Though I don't see why he wouldn't be able to perform senjutsu as an Edo when Hashirama was doing it just fine. There's gotta be something more that's not related to the Sneju, I think.

Yup! I remember that thread of yours, which is the sole reason why when Madara said that, I thought of Orochimaru.

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Post by Irielo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:33 am

^ Sennjutsu was something Hashirama had already mastered. I don't know if Madara could already perform it when he was still alive and that, after he implanted Hashi's cells to himself. Of course, he developed the Rinnegan, but as far as Senjutsu is concerned, it still has to be cleared imo.

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Post by Strawberry on Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:40 am

^ That wasn't the point though; whether Hashirama mastered it first or not wasn't where I was getting at. The point is Hashirama being an Edo Tensei was able to use Senjutsu, which means Senjutsu is not limited to a living body and it can indeed be used in Edo Tensei, regardless if he has to master it or not is not impossible. So Madara's reason for wanting a living body shouldn't be linked to him wanting to use Senjutsu, even more so when he just stated Senjutsu wasn't even that big of a deal to him.

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Post by Irielo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:21 am

Strawberry wrote:^ That wasn't the point though; whether Hashirama mastered it first or not wasn't where I was getting at. The point is Hashirama being an Edo Tensei was able to use Senjutsu, which means Senjutsu is not limited to a living body and it can indeed be used in Edo Tensei, regardless if he has to master it or not is not impossible. So Madara's reason for wanting a living body shouldn't be linked to him wanting to use Senjutsu, even more so when he just stated Senjutsu wasn't even that big of a deal to him.
As far as Hashirama is concerned, I would like to know if he had to learn Sennjutsu or if it was an ability he had from the start. The thing too is why is Madara using Sennjutsu now? He could have done it before, inflicting the maximum damages to the alliance, taking advantage of Hashirama while letting Naruto, Sasuke and co. dealing with Obito. If he did so, he would have by now less job to do...But he preferred to wait until the moment Obito weakened to resurrect.

That's why this panel showing that he cut his wrist lightly, with some blood drops, just before he immobilized Hashirama makes me think that there is something in his blood allowing him to do so and, btw, blood and flesh are essential and vital components which characterize a living being, not a zombie...


Last edited by Irielo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added something)
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Post by Strawberry on Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:45 am

^ Senjutsu is drawn from nature, so Hashirama couldn't have it from the start. Maybe he had some special ability to draw nature energy easier like Juugo's clan, but Senjutsu is something the person learns, they aren't born with it as far as we know. And same reason why he's only using his speed now? It's common knowledge Madara didn't go all out, acting all high mighty and superior like everyone else was below him. He even just sat at one time. LOL. It made a lot of people not take him seriously.

Anyway, there's no indication that you can't use Senjutsu while being an Edo Tensei, but I'll agree with you on the fact that maybe he got Senjutsu from Hashirama now because he needed to draw his blood, since he wasn't going to go through the whole training process. I just think it's inconsistent with the fact that Itachi bled while being an Edo Tensei.

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