Why the Byakugan is above the Mangekyo Sharingan

This thread does not claim Neji is above Itachi or anything like that, so don't go assuming so.
This is not a Neji/Hinata/Hiashi VS Itachi/Sauske/Madara thread. This is merely a thread explaining how the Hyuga's Kekkai genkai abilities can counter and defeat the Uchiha's Kekkai Genkai abilities.
In a fight, Itachi has more than his KKG abilites, as does Sasuke & Madara. These abilities are NOT put into factor here, merely their Sharingan abilities. Ounce again, this is NOT a Neji Vs Sasuke thread, but an Uchiha KKG VS Hyuga KKG Thread.

• Blood Loss
  
• Eye Strain
  
• Dizziness
  
• Eye-sight Damage
  
• Consumes a Great Deal of Chakra
  
• Abilities can be used a few times.
  
• No Spamming
  

The Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan does not have any of these negative side affects, and it also increases the power of hte Mangekyo Sharingan jutsus, and it consumes much less chakra. For these reasons, the Mangekyo Sharingan is not the best choice in a a battle.





It was stated that the Byakugan user is capable of sensing all of their opponents movements & attacks, which would in a  sense counter the Sharingan's prediction ability and make it useless. They would essentially cancel each other out.

Also the Hyugas are fast, not on their feet, but in their attacks. they are not "foot" fast but rather they are "body" fast. What I mean by this is that while characters like Ay, Naruto or Gai are fast on their feet, characters like  Hinata or Neji are fast when attacking.

Despite the fact that Naruto is fast on his feet, his bodily movements such as his punches are average. As evident when his attacks in KCM were blocked by Itachi, without much effort.


Neji & Hinata could attack an enemy 64 times in a near instant.

Gai can also punch a great deal amount of times in succession

Combat speed and foot speed are not the same.


Sasuke was unable to keep up with Lee's speed.


Lee was stated to always lose to Neji, which would mean Lee's speed wasn't fast enough for Neji's fists. Therefore, it would seem that an Uchiha would have diffculty in trying to predict and avoid the gentle fist.

The Byakugan has also shown the ability to read the mind in a way. Kakashi stated that the Byakugan far surpasses the Sharingan in insight.

But what exactly does insight mean?
Insight [ˈɪnˌsaɪt]
n
1. the ability to perceive clearly or deeply; penetration
2. a penetrating and often sudden understanding, as of a complex situation or problem
3. (Psychology) Psychol
a. the capacity for understanding one's own or another's mental processes
b. the immediate understanding of the significance of an event or action


Here are some instances where the Byakugan to read the emotions or thoughts of others.


^Neji being able to tell Hinata is scared of being in the Chunnin exams.


^Here Neji activates his Byakugan SOLELY to see what Naruto was feeling, as in the panel before and after, they are not there.

So yeah, the Byakugan could very well read the intentions of an Uchiha and be able to know what they might do. Might.


A Susano'O would be countered by their their trademark attack, gentle fist. It was stated by Neji that any substance that is made of chakra can be destroyed by using the gentle fist to insert chakra into the substance and to destroy it. Susano'O is a manifestation of the users chakra, it is classified as ninjutsu, therefore, Susano'O is made of chakra.


Susano'O COULD be destroyed by gentle fist, as Susano'O is made of chakra, and the Gentle fist is capable of DESTROYING chakra.... but only if the user is able to get close enough, but obviously someone like Madara wouldn't let anyone get close to his susano'O. I do believe that theoretically the gentle fist can destroy the susano'O...but the Hyuga could not get to the susano'O. But I still think that, if they could touch it, the Hyuga could destroy Susano'O.

Ever heard of concentrated attacks against a powerful wall defense? That's all Susanoo is, a powerful wall of materialized chakra which can be broken if an attack is repeatedly struck at one specific point, typically the weakest point.

Hyuuga specialize in seeing chakra form (structure), affinity, and flow. Their ability to disrupt ninjutsu is because they are able to use this insight to manipulate the chakra network of a user. It is not that they require contact with the user to disrupt chakra flow of an ability - but in order to "shut down" or "burn out" a ninja, they require access to the chakra network.

It is entirely reasonable that they could utilize the same principles to disrupt the ethereal forms of Susano'o and even Tailed Beast Mode. They would not necessarily be able to disrupt the chakra network of the user - but they could easily use their own chakra to 'unravel' the chakra form or add turbulance to its flow.

Even if the Hyuga is unable to approach the Uchiha because of Susano'O, The hyugas possess the Vaccum Palm that unleashes a fast burst of chakra at the opponent which sends them flying before they even know they're hit. This attack can be used against large-scale opponents for both defense and offense.


I seriously can't understand how anyone can consider this a "fodder" attack. I also don't understand how anyone can say this "wasn't impressive".


Going by these pictures, this is the average Susano'O size. If we were to imagine a Susano'O around Hiashi in the image where he is attcaking the Juubi, it seems that the Juubi's arm is around 7X larger than the Susano'O


Now, the Vaccuum air palm, which clearly shows to have an impact equal in size to the Juubi's arm, is most likely able to defeat a Mangekyo Sharingan Susano'O.

It isn't about power, its about counters and weak spots.



Heavenly Rotation, which works in a similar fashion to Almighty Push, would be capable of stopping Amaterasu or other fire jutsus. It's not clear exactly how Amaterasu behaves. It has been depicted numerous times behaving as both a projectile and a 'manifest' type attack. Further - It is not clear what can or cannot stop it. However, going by the fact that Ay was able to dodge it, this shows it's a projectile.

The Byakugan grants it's user the ability to read and detect it's surroundings much faster than a regular eye, which would make it much easier to spot Amaterasu or Blaze release techniques coming. Heavenly Rotation forms a high-speed dome of chakra around the user, and protects them from all angles.

It is also not clear what insights the Byakugan may be able to provide in regards to the structure of Amaterasu, which may allow them to manipulate it far more readily than others who lack such abilities (as the Byakugan provides far more insight than the Sharingan). Even seeing the buildup of chakra in the eye could be enough for them to devise a way to counter.

Neji is capable of seeing Deidara's chakra build up here.


As well as Kidomaru's.


And here is what Nagato says when Itachi is about to use Amaterasu.


Nagato' statement "This pressure!" Seems to indicate that there is chakra being built up behind the eye, so it's not much of a stretch to say that the Byakugan could very well see the attack incoming. This ability basically allows for them to see what attck their opponent is about to use and plan their counter against it, as all nin & genjutsu requires chakra to perform.

Some of you may say that the Hyuga wouldn't be fast enough to perform rotation before Amaterasu got to them (which I disagree to) but, if that was the case, Heavenly rotation isn't the only defense they have. Take a good look.


Hyugas are capable of having a layer of chakra surround their body like armor. This not only requires much less chakra than Heavenly rotation, but it also doesn't require one to spin, and is a constant defense against attacks. Now, this chakra armor is obviously weaker than rotation, but that really doesn't matter here, as it is said Amaterasu doesn't disappear until it burns it's original target. This means that if Amaterasu were to hit the armor, it would burn the chakra away and then disappear, to which then a hyuga could replace the burned hole with more chakra.

Also, Hyugas are capable of emitting chakra out of their bodies to change the direction of attacks. This would yet again be another counter to amaterasu.


Moreover, Amaterasu can only burn what it focuses on, therefore, If one is to keep moving, it will be diffcult to exicute the attack. And, like I said earlier, Hyugas are able to shroud themselves in a layer of chakra similar to the Kyuubi cloak which would mean there would always be something in between the Hyuga and Amaterasu, meaning the uchiha would never be able to "focus" on the Hyuga.


And then there's the Gentle fist Art: One blow body, which pushes the an enemy away from the user with the force of chakra leaving the users chakra points. This is basically a Rotation in a certain direction. This could be used if the hyuga were to be caught by amaterasu, even though the chances of that are pretty unlikely anyways.

The Byakugan is also able to keep up with high speed movement. This is apparent by Neji's ability to analyze Kidomaru's high-speed attacks while they are in motion.


Neji, along with Kakashi, was able to keep up with Lee's movement in his Gates mode, Kakashi due to being able to predict movements and Neji due to be able to follow high speed movement. So the Byakugan is capable of being able to see some pretty fast jutsus, which would allow them to be able to counter the black flames easier.


In chapter 638, Hinata was also able to see Obito absorb the Juubi with Kamui, despite the jutsu being near-instant.


Sakura asks Hinata if she saw what happened, with her replying that it was clear from what she saw that Obito absorbed the Juubi. She then goes on to say that even Obito's chakra is proof of this. Hinata said "Judging by the chakra as well", which means there was at least 2 methods to which she was able to know how Obito became the Juubi's host. Hinata also says "absorbed" rather than "sealed" and when observing the distorted scenario when the absorption was taking place, it's clear that Obito absorbed and didn't seal the Juubi, which may explain his bizarre appearance.


Here, Naruto is around a metre away from him, yet he was able to warp away in very little time, proving Kamui is pretty fast when it's used. Obito has also been shown to be able to warp things, usually his own body, in a fraction of a second.


Byakugan is capable of being able to keep up with some very fast jutsus, meaning amaterasu won't be much of a problem to keep an eye on.



Hyuga's can't get caught in Genjutsu since they can fight with eyes closed. In the case they do get caught in a a gen-jutsu, they can easily tell if they're under a Genjutsu thanks to their Byakugan's ability to see chakra flow, as shown by Ao.
Just like the Sharingan does.

With Their X, 360 degree, and extended vision, the Hyugas can both close their eyes, to prevent getting caught in Genjutsu of the Sharingan, and still see where their opponent is and exactly what they’re doing. It was also shown by Hinata in the Itachi Pursuit ARC that the Byakugan is capable of detecting when a Genjutsu is in use.


Now on to dispelling genjutsu if caught.


Here Jiraiya Says "If you use more power" this seems to indicate that, the better you are at controlling your chakra, the easier it will be to break or dispel genjutsu, which explains why Sakura was considered a genjutsu type, as casting genjutsu and dispelling it both require great control of chakra.


A lot of you would say that it's impossible to break out of Tsykyomi. But what exactly does it take for one to break out of genjutsu? Controlling their chakra in a proper way, and as we know, no one is capable of controlling their chakra better than the Hyuga, so much so that they are able to release chakra from all of their chakra points.

Tsukiyomi has been confirmed to require FULL EYE CONTACT to work, as was in the case of Asuma & Kurenai closing their eyes when facing Itachi.


So unless the Hyuga don't have knowledge on it, Tsykyomi can't do shit to them. Hyugas, like I said before, could simply fight with their eyes closed. Due to the complexity of the illusion and the quickness with which it is executed, an enormous amount of chakra is necessary and an added amount of stress is placed on the left eye, leaving Itachi's vision more blurred.

Another alternative, is if they were to attempt gentle fisting themselves. The main method for a ninja to break genjutsu is that they would need to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra; this is called Genjutsu Dissipation. Gentle fist can very easily stop the flow of chakra as it seals off chakra points. So a Hyuga would first identify a genjutsu with their eyes by observing the chakra flow & colour and then break it by gentle fisting themselves.

Excellent, excellent post Twin Steps!

This really hypes me up for a future Sharingan vs. Byakugan Battle, I really want these questions settled once and for all and I have a feeling they will soon.

You know, this really does make me wonder if the Hyuuga were invited into Konoha, probably by Tobirama, to serve as a counter to the Uchiha.

+ rep

I must say i enjoyed the read...you certainly put a lot of effort into this and it was very well done.

@SenpaiSamaSan
interesting thought it definitely sounds like something Tobirama would do

Impressive Twin Steps! Well done! I was not sure of the byakugan's ability to counter genjutsu. The way you exposed your theory is clear and very convincing.

Just one thing, is the byakugan more a kind of defensive weapon which allows its user to counter different types of attack?

I would like to know if thanks to the byakugan, a user could perform powerful genjutsu.

Irielo wrote:Impressive Twin Steps! Well done! I was not sure of the byakugan's ability to counter genjutsu. The way you exposed your theory is clear and very convincing.

Just one thing, is the byakugan more a kind of defensive weapon which allows its user to counter different types of attack?

I would like to know if thanks to the byakugan, a user could perform powerful genjutsu.

Byakugan is more defensive than offensive imo, and I don' think it can cast genjutsu, that's only the sharingan's ability

^Thanks! Then let's imagine a fight between a byakugan and and a sharingan user: the speed would make the difference. The sharingan user would have to attack enough fast to surprise his opponent.

The byakugan user would have to read the attack in the right time an counter it.

Irielo wrote:^Thanks! Then let's imagine a fight between a byakugan and and a sharingan user: the speed would make the difference. The sharingan user would have to attack enough fast to surprise his opponent.

The byakugan user would have to read the attack in the right time an counter it.

COnsidering Hinata was able to see a Kamui, which is near-instant, I think the Hyuga wouldn't have trouble seeing the attacks coming, avoiding them would be another story. but then again, close combat is a huge mistake against Hyugas as apparent by the Neji VS Naruto, where, had it not been for Kurama Naruto would not have had any chakra, fight and by the Neji VS kidomaru fight where Kidomaru kept his distance from neji the whole time and got pwned as soon as he got close at the end of the fight

Irielo wrote:Impressive Twin Steps! Well done! I was not sure of the byakugan's ability to counter genjutsu. The way you exposed your theory is clear and very convincing.

Just one thing, is the byakugan more a kind of defensive weapon which allows its user to counter different types of attack?

I would like to know if thanks to the byakugan, a user could perform powerful genjutsu.

I've been wondering that maybe a Hyuuga would have greater aptitude towards genjutsu with their ability to see chakra flow and to manipulate said flow by shutting off tenketsu or at least be able to make it more difficult to cancel a genjutsu once it's affected someone.

Genjutsu basically amounts to being able to control the chakra in your targets head in order to manipulate their senses. We know that by striking tenketsu with the Jyuuken a Hyuuga is able to control the flow of chakra in their target; they can slow their targets chakra down, speed it up or completely stop it. Maybe, by striking tenketsu in an opponents head, a Hyuuga can manipulate their targets senses in a similar fashion that a genjutsu would, although I would assume it would be pretty basic sensory manipulation (sleep, vertigo, dampening/heightening senses) rather than elaborate illusion, but, since the chakra manipulation stems from a physical source, dispelling such a manipulation would be a lot more difficult than a regular genjutsu as it would require those affected to try and reopen their tenketsu, something extremely difficult to do for a non-Hyuuga.

So I was thinking that if someone casts a genjutsu on an enemy and a Hyuuga quickly closes off a few tenketsu on said enemy to stimulate chakra flow, it would be a lot more difficult for the enemy to stop their chakra flow and cancel the genjutsu.

IDK really, but your comment really made me think about that lol.

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:

Irielo wrote:Impressive Twin Steps! Well done! I was not sure of the byakugan's ability to counter genjutsu. The way you exposed your theory is clear and very convincing.

Just one thing, is the byakugan more a kind of defensive weapon which allows its user to counter different types of attack?

I would like to know if thanks to the byakugan, a user could perform powerful genjutsu.

I've been wondering that maybe a Hyuuga would have greater aptitude towards genjutsu with their ability to see chakra flow and to manipulate said flow by shutting off tenketsu or at least be able to make it more difficult to cancel a genjutsu once it's affected someone.

Genjutsu basically amounts to being able to control the chakra in your targets head in order to manipulate their senses. We know that by striking tenketsu with the Jyuuken a Hyuuga is able to control the flow of chakra in their target; they can slow their targets chakra down, speed it up or completely stop it. Maybe, by striking tenketsu in an opponents head, a Hyuuga can manipulate their targets senses in a similar fashion that a genjutsu would, although I would assume it would be pretty basic sensory manipulation (sleep, vertigo, dampening/heightening senses) rather than elaborate illusion, but, since the chakra manipulation stems from a physical source, dispelling such a manipulation would be a lot more difficult than a regular genjutsu as it would require those affected to try and reopen their tenketsu, something extremely difficult to do for a non-Hyuuga.

So I was thinking that if someone casts a genjutsu on an enemy and a Hyuuga quickly closes off a few tenketsu on said enemy to stimulate chakra flow, it would be a lot more difficult for the enemy to stop their chakra flow and cancel the genjutsu.

IDK really, but your comment really made me think about that lol.

That's interesting because that would be a kind of genjutsu more based on the sensations manipulation.

Spoiler:

Following this example, if that's something that a byakugan user would be able to do: hit chakra points and manipulate the sensations of an opponent, that would be more powerful than a genjutsu because the victim is well aware of what is going on but can't do a single thing whereas in a genjutsu case, the victim is caught in an illusion and has to get out of it either by freeing himsel/herself from it or if he/she gets help from someone else.

Twin Steps wrote:

Irielo wrote:^Thanks! Then let's imagine a fight between a byakugan and and a sharingan user: the speed would make the difference. The sharingan user would have to attack enough fast to surprise his opponent.

The byakugan user would have to read the attack in the right time an counter it.

COnsidering Hinata was able to see a Kamui, which is near-instant,  I think the Hyuga wouldn't have trouble seeing the attacks coming, avoiding them would be another story. but then again, close combat is a huge mistake against Hyugas as apparent by the Neji VS Naruto, where, had it not been for Kurama Naruto would not have had any chakra, fight and by the Neji VS kidomaru fight where Kidomaru kept his distance from neji the whole time and got pwned as soon as he got close at the end of the fight

The key is that the byakugan user gets close enough, for instance, to Susanoo to stop it. But if the sharingan user knows how to keep his distance then, Susanoo's arrow could be a problem.

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:
I've been wondering that maybe a Hyuuga would have greater aptitude towards genjutsu with their ability to see chakra flow and to manipulate said flow by shutting off tenketsu or at least be able to make it more difficult to cancel a genjutsu once it's affected someone.

Genjutsu basically amounts to being able to control the chakra in your targets head in order to manipulate their senses. We know that by striking tenketsu with the Jyuuken a Hyuuga is able to control the flow of chakra in their target; they can slow their targets chakra down, speed it up or completely stop it. Maybe, by striking tenketsu in an opponents head, a Hyuuga can manipulate their targets senses in a similar fashion that a genjutsu would, although I would assume it would be pretty basic sensory manipulation (sleep, vertigo, dampening/heightening senses) rather than elaborate illusion, but, since the chakra manipulation stems from a physical source, dispelling such a manipulation would be a lot more difficult than a regular genjutsu as it would require those affected to try and reopen their tenketsu, something extremely difficult to do for a non-Hyuuga.

So I was thinking that if someone casts a genjutsu on an enemy and a Hyuuga quickly closes off a few tenketsu on said enemy to stimulate chakra flow, it would be a lot more difficult for the enemy to stop their chakra flow and cancel the genjutsu.

IDK really, but your comment really made me think about that lol.

^ I've been thinking the same for a while...In my post on the NaruHina kids thread it was something like this i was thinking their youngest daughter could explore.

Irielo wrote:

Twin Steps wrote:

Irielo wrote:^Thanks! Then let's imagine a fight between a byakugan and and a sharingan user: the speed would make the difference. The sharingan user would have to attack enough fast to surprise his opponent.

The byakugan user would have to read the attack in the right time an counter it.

COnsidering Hinata was able to see a Kamui, which is near-instant,  I think the Hyuga wouldn't have trouble seeing the attacks coming, avoiding them would be another story. but then again, close combat is a huge mistake against Hyugas as apparent by the Neji VS Naruto, where, had it not been for Kurama Naruto would not have had any chakra, fight and by the Neji VS kidomaru fight where Kidomaru kept his distance from neji the whole time and got pwned as soon as he got close at the end of the fight

The key is that the byakugan user gets close enough, for instance, to Susanoo to stop it. But if the sharingan user knows how to keep his distance then, Susanoo's arrow could be a problem

Except susano'O arrow is an EMS ability, and this is Byalugan vs MS

Twin Steps wrote:

Spoiler:

Except susano'O arrow is an EMS ability, and this is Byalugan vs MS

What could then do a byakugan user against a arrow if that's an EMS ability? Kaiten? Then that would be only pure defense.

Irielo wrote:

Twin Steps wrote:

Spoiler:

Except susano'O arrow is an EMS ability, and this is Byalugan vs MS

What could then do a byakugan user against a arrow if that's an EMS ability? Kaiten? Then that would be only pure defense.

Well, this isn't really the point of the thread, but vacuum air palm may work, considering what it was able to do to the juubi's arm.

^ I always love your theories TwinSteps

You forgot to add Hinata reading Neji's thoughts with her Byakugan. It was after the match was over whe she was saying he was suffering more than her. Or was it filler? I didn't start readng Naruto manga until Pein/Pain attacked.

This made lol If ypu tpld me that the byakugan is better than a the 2 tomoe sharingan Sasuke had in part I, this'd make more sense, but the MS? No, just no.

NaruHina <3 wrote:You forgot to add Hinata reading Neji's thoughts with her Byakugan. It was after the match was over whe  she was saying he was suffering more than her. Or was it filler? I didn't start readng Naruto manga until Pein/Pain attacked.

That wasn't filler. That's the reason Neji tried to kill her in the first place. It happened in chapter 80.

Okay, thanks. I'll go check that chapter out. 

Batokusanagi wrote:This made lol If ypu tpld me that the byakugan is better than a the 2 tomoe sharingan Sasuke had in part I, this'd make more sense, but the MS? No, just no.

Bro, did you even read? Probably not....